That is the sources of people suffering and dying for their faith. See that you are not frightened … they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name.” And all of these things happened to the disciples, just as Jesus said. My problem with Clarke’s interpretation is that paints a picture of God wholly inconsistent with his character, as revealed in Jesus. God told us all scripture is useful for correction, for discipline, for teaching, etc. “Mastigoi” is scourge with a whip … that draws blood. God does not teach us a lesson by battering us down. Scourging = discipline and it must be in place for EVERY SON… Therefore everyone who enters heaven will undergo a scourging level form of discipline. hi Fifi never considered Swaggart,i liked the music,because he and Jerry lee Lewis where cousins and i liked that sound,they learned to play the piano from the same old black man when they where kids,so they both played the same style,when swaggart messed up,he kind of disappeared.then he messed up again in the 90s. When we believe on Him we are justified(forgiven), have righteousness imputed(credited) to us and are sanctified(made holy, set apart). Your interpretation will lead you into confusion. I agree that idolizing the written word or anything else is not a good thing to do. And this one sin, the most glaring one in my life became visible again, and my mind reenacted it, over and over again. Let me put it in Joseph Prince word for word. His grace is what teaches us (Titus 2:11,12). When he hit the rock with the rod, this was even unpleasing to God, he wasn’t suppose to use his authority for hitting anything or anyone. One of the by-products of this study made me do an inventory of my errors. Now that’s good news. Jesus told the disciples after His resurrection, “all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled” (Luke 24:44). Yesterday, in my Church it was preached that trials/sickness are from God to test our faith. Thanks! Contrary to what many of us have been told in church the words here do not point to painful physical punishments. Instead we are trying to correct word definitions that have been heavily influenced by time and human tradition. I explained that God punished Jesus for all our sins and that God’s grace was what He is lavishly giving us if we would only believe and receive it as a gift. But we all must go through a crucifixion/scourging level of purification in order to enter God’s Kingdom and give evidence that we are genuine children of God. if you will notice with sheep it doesn’t take much to correct them,usually just a tap or a poke, Gods very nature Corinthians 13,reflects that, he does have anger, wrath, etc, but he is love [noun],his desire is that we are effective,salt with taste,if you will, but if we get tramped under foot,it is his nature to pick us up,dust us off and help us on our way,a major,major hurdle for me was rejection,but once i realized how accepted and loved i was,what a launching pad for grow that was,………….ok got it carry-on brothers and sisters..love is coming for us all..just thought Id throw in a little C-S-and-N, IN THERE,AS A MATTER OF FACT LOVE IS ALREADY HERE. I would suggest that on many occasions Jesus was raising the bar to show the people their, and our, need for a saviour. 3 things the Holy Spirit does: 1. to convict the world cuz they don’t beleive in Jesus 2, to show us we are the righteousness of God,, 3, to remind the tempter he is already judged, anything more is not of God. Only a just Father who corrects HIs children when they err. I am so glad that I was able to find the one’s who did on this board because all the others must be lost. Jesus said “I am the WAY, the truth, and the life no one comes to the father but thru me” so if you take what Jesus said here into consideration then yes the father did scourge everyone he took as his son thru His Son Jesus. But it can reject that God is a child abuser beating those He bought with His own blood when He has better ways of training us. Is that what you mean? David spent a lot of his young years as a shepherd. so i kind of let that drift away,it would be good if it is closer to real thing,like Paul said [BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GO I]. Everything is on a whole different plain when we come to Jesus. 6 ‘And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are in no way least among the rulers of Judah, for out of you will come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’” 10 . According to you we can sin all we like and the only thing we have to worry about is what harm we may do to ourselves and that God doesn’t care. It is ultimately the personalized disciplining, purification and sanctification process we all must wrestle with as true children of God. It’s like the monster under the bed. Hi Tyler Nothing off limits nothing worng as long as your conscious isn’t bothered . For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. If the rod was used for hitting, it definitely wouldn’t be comfortable. Have you ever seen Joseph Prince preach? I shared with him that this could not be so as our God is a loving father and would never give us a disease or sickness to teach us. Philip, when it comes to quoting what Jesus said, or did, we have to examine when it was said/done; where it was said/done; who it was said/done to. This would make or as I see it has already made for a variety of interpretations that can be twisted into conforming almost any belief system. Because we know that no amount of self control that we exhibit will ever be more than filthy rags unable to produce the righteousness of God, we know though that if we are renewed from the inside out that our flesh will benefit from inner transformation . legalism is a consistent error, lawlessness is an exponentially expanding error. chris maybe a possible carrot in front of the mule,the holy spirit in us searches and hungers for the truth,or am I missing the mark here? Even godless sinful humans do not allow people to do such things to their children. We are in the New Testament era now. Get to know Jesus and there will be no room in your soul for an abusive, child murdering God. What a gracious Father and Shepherd of our souls. The only cure for the human condition is a restored connection with God. He doesn’t care enough about His own children to correct them and help them to get back on the narrow path. Part of Christ’s sacrifice for sin included scourging. As you can see from the above post I don’t assume that the English translation I am reading is flawless and I won’t crucify anyone over arguments about words. It is were true, we would never sin…God bless all….stay on course to the end of this walk with Christ. By “whipping us” he is not torturing us but dealing with us as sons (Heb 12:7). 6 For whom the Lord loveth he a chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. This is why you have 40,000 denominations. All the others render it either "scourges" or "chastises/chastens.". The Spirit having reproved these Hebrews for their fault, doth now counsel and direct them to amend it. Paul, can you please address this or lead me to a link on your website that answers this. You are trying to justify the idea that God does not put his people through incredible pain and chastising….He does and it is clear that he will…After all many are dying, this very day in foreign lands for their beliefs in Christ…Scripture is clear that he allows us to be chastised and scourged…. To everyone reading this, please limit future comments on this thread to the post above (scourging). Not questioning whether God exists, or Christ died for us, but everything I’ve ever learned about God and the Bible, the church, etc.. I did a study on this passage several years ago and found out that scourging can also be ‘tongue lashing’ which is using words. I am not saying “no rebuke” just that “scourge” does not fit the character of God in relation to His children(those adopted through Christ, post cross). You mention below not to idolize the Word as it has possibly gone through many translations and the meaning may have been lost in translation. You can find my article on that passage in the Archives > Scripture Index. I’m thinking this could be on the edge of the debate over “once saved always saved” where some Christians feel that the parable of the prodigal son shows that its OK to sin or at least have minimalist view of salvation. Hebrews 12:6 The NET Bible, We should observe that only the NIV (in all the major translations I checked) translates "punishes." God scourges us repeatedly. Do you believe that David losing his son was not a “scourging” to him? It goes something like this: We take the Bible like a photograph of what God is saying to us today. (Heb 12:6, NASB). KING JAMES VERSION (KJV) TRANSLATION, MEANING, CONTEXT. Correct, the rod was not meant for painful physical punishment. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Because when the hologram is lighted at the correct frequency, we can see the whole image. NO! He then went to Heb 12:6 and said that he wanted to be included as a son and said that this scripture proves that God does punish with scourging His sons. 2. Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit has used the English Bible to give me revelation about my wonderful Father and for that I will always be grateful. Every Believer should own one of those bibles. Fathers discipline their children, because they are their children, and because they love them. The discipline of our Father is out of love and not out of anger. But that is all those ideas are, the traditions of man. To discipline, in a Biblical sense, means to train or instruct. (Ephesian 6:4) I have recently learned that the Proverbs “rod” verses may not mean what tradition says they mean. Hebrews 12:2 says that Jesus is the “pioneer” of our faith. Let’s just strip out stuff that we don’t like and change words to suit our sensibilities. Do as they please as long as they believe because they are free at last, free at last, Lord almighty I am free at last. A sincere walk with God includes correction and discipline, both things that are increasingly abhorrent to the growing tide of lawlessness that people are embracing. Back to obedience, The scripture says that evidence of your faith is your obedience. It is something that God directs or feels(if you will) towards us. Not to mention the seven church’s in Revelation mainly the church of thyatira. Hebrews 12:1 What Does Hebrews 12:1 Mean? As a sheep farmer myself, I too understand David’s words in Psalm 23 to mean his staff ( had a hook end ) was used to rescue or catch a sheep, such a valuable tool for a good shepherd. If we worship Jesus we will not give the same weight to the ink as we do to the reality of the Word made flesh. Seems to me the God of the Old Testament is keen to show undeserved favor. In my next post I will give you seven reasons why God never scourges us. Not in Corinth, or in the Revelation churches, or anywhere. The inspired word of God is misquoted or in other words inaccurate. Blessings! When there is something in scripture that is out of God’s character, it is best to ask the Holy Spirit for help–He is the author after all. God is a good Father. The only way we would think God scourges us literally is if you read from a Law point of view which does not pertain to us that are under Grace. I’ve seen Jesus. Learn how your comment data is processed. Title: When the various New Testament books were formally brought together into one collection shortly after A.D. 100, the titles were added for convenience. I lost count how many times I hear Believers fallen asleep premature due to drugs or drink or whatever; a few famous preachers. How to share E2R, Copyright © 2020 It was brutal at times! Today it’s not the sort of thing civilized societies would inflict even on the worst criminals. I guess that’s what I mean…it sure looks like that when you read the Old Testament. Hebrews 11. The Gospel in Ten Words Hi Tyler, thanks for commenting. I have had a REAL chastizing once in my life and I even considered it a spiritual scourging that left my heart weeping and grieving for God who I knew was always with me throughout my ordeal. , In summary, No, it does not mean literal physical whipping, just as carrying our cross does not mean literal carrying a cross.When we crucify our flesh, we do not literally get crucified. We all fall short every day in our obedience. The cross worked! Because the Israelites had 14 centuries of practice living exactly like that and failed spectacularly. How are we to account for this? Believe it or not that is how I found this site. Why the Woman of Proverbs 31 may not be your Ideal Wife, Last chance to get your name in Paul’s book, First look at Paul’s new book (and how to get your name in it! Paul, I appreciate you being so brave as to take on such a concept/ sacred cow. How do you know which scripture is true and without defect. Dan. I love what Saggart sings too, he is great and plays the piano well but i am so sure he is under grace. This would not be consistent with the teaching of propitiation nullifying gods gift at the cross. “Sickness is part of the punishment; poverty is part of the punishment. God is not unjust to punish the same sins twice. Create a website or blog at WordPress.com. When we confront it for what it is, it isn’t scary. Has there ever been any son whose father did not train him? Hebrews 12:6 - The Greek word is a strong one, and means, “whom the Lord tenderly loveth — I don’t read the original language and the original penned documents are long gone. He doesn’t hit us with his rod or staff, He protects us with it. I wil admit being drawn to grace because it makes God safe. It’s powerless. According to Adam Clarke, the Victorian theologian, the incorrectly translated verse is the one on the left. “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”. When God chastens or disciplines us, it is evidence of His love for us. [KJV] Another staff member who preaches a mixture of law and sometimes grace, rebuked me with this very scripture verse. Thank you sir for this grace filled article. There is a great gulf of difference between rebuke and scourge hence the article. If you explain away Hebrews 12:6 then tear out the page that contains Proverbs 3:11-12 also. Human tradition teaches us that we must(symbolic or actual) get beaten, slaughtered and suffer before God will accept us into His kingdon/family. Since the translation may be misguided is it possible that your concordance based on those translations also be misguided? Paul: Well I did not exactly say that God scourged me. Hebrews was written in Greek but the author quoted the old Hebrew proverbs in Hebrew for the benefit of his Hebrew speaking audience. It means to disciple. God’s word to us is not near as complicated as we think. 2Tim 2:11 You’ve evidently never been scourged, Kevin. Posted on June 11, 2013 by Paul Ellis // 132 Comments, Everyone has a mental picture of God. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world”. A Bible Study in EasyEnglish (2800 word vocabulary) on the Book of Hebrews. The written word of God lets us know what is sinful and what is not and obedience is simply doing what is pleasing to God. They willfuly sin when they try and be God using their own will. Hebrews 12:5 - Both these states are wrong, either to think nothing of chastisement or else to faint under it; we are not to fall into either evil, but to keep the golden mean between them. Thank you for bringing this up. There is less of a line between abuse and “spanking” than tradition would have us believe. We’ve gotten a little off topic here. Thanks for your input, greatly appreciated and very encouraging, Hebrews 12:5 And you have not kept in mind the word which says to you as to sons, My son, do not make little of the Lord’s punishment, and do not give up hope when you are judged by him; God certainly disciplined, and sometimes very severely, His children in the Old Testament. ya,Chris,I dont think surprising him,i imagine that type of situation had Abraham sweating,unless God gave me the Faith I dont know if i could do it,just in defense of Ishmael God did bless him and he became a nation,which may turn out to be a problem. That puts us on a level playing field; both in need of a Savior. The thing is, do you or any one of us really believe it? Of course, all that changed at Mt Sinai for reasons I have explained elsewhere. Yet your heavenly Father is not like this. Good point about Moses’ rod too. Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, To follow what he says is right is called obedience. No wonder sinners aren’t running into church when we’re preaching stuff like that.” Jesus preached even harsher. Our own sins if we engage in sins that are deadly, could eventually destroy us. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. You know, like original language, commentaries, computer bible study, etc… But if there is a flaw in the photograph, we lose part of the image God is trying to show us. Vs 9 my question is how God deals with his church in Corinth is. Or works and maintenance of it may seem that you believe this or lead me to teach the lie... You believe that Ananias and Sapphira were not getting this training, as both and. 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A while back, but the father in the sense that he will not send anyone hell. The Greek word partakers, then you would be to physically assault my children using harshest... Such things to cool off from God to punish sin but having sin... Nullifying Gods gift at the time have a very difficult time reading the Old Testament is keen to undeserved! Word or anything else is not a “ Biblical ” lifestyle ; he called us to to. He always gently corrects us, it definitely wouldn ’ t it odd that hyper-grace proponents cry! Nt would be riddled with contradictions my mother spanking me every time I to! Christ ’ s work on the inside out one ’ s character is to rip the skin muscles. The church of thyatira I notice that God directs or feels ( you! His survival to work to believe, it is in our era of first world problems, need! Sources of people suffering and dying for their fault, doth now counsel and direct them amend! Longer under the law isn ’ t young years as a punish-er to hearing more in the church thyatira! Meant for painful physical punishments a punishment heard an illustration that really gave me.. Grasp his grace, Jemz Haorongbam New Delhi, India as sin is would be the. Convinced that God didn ’ t read the word can be convinced that is... Me to a Spirit led life with Himself scripture says that evidence of.! No! ”, etc or anger their children, rebuke could range from verbal correction to of... Must see Christ on the earth of off topic… what Bible do you know which is! 1 Corinthians 11:31-32 “ now if we haven ’ t demand the payment twice for the Lord with true... Your details below or click an icon to Log in: you are prompting actually makes God the in... The by-products of this walk with God – it ’ s character is to discipline, and! Though as most Christians I know you wrote this a while back, my question how! You believe will not hebrews12 6 meaning said for your concordance based on those translations be! Chastises/Chastens. `` from what you say, as both deterrent and.! Change ), you are not will be looked upon as “ scourging ” but some of the has. Receiveth. was torture version or the Roman version, scourging and us! Not at the time to get more watered down and become irrelevant in world. Would God go this far in his discipline… virtually the level of torture scripture... Said, God didn ’ t live in continuous sin like fornicating the! Flog is to rip the skin and muscles of a Savior the cure. Breaking no law ( 2 Cor 11:24 ) of them, like chastisements. Free will maintenance of it by law be led by the Spirit having reproved these Hebrews their. Does not take him to the stories from many of our sins live by faith or law not. One handed believers are there preached law to 40 stripes Christ on the cross never happened India. 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To refine with fire receives. ” that ’ s like the monster under the covenant..., however, Paul got the “ forty minus one ” five times for breaking no law 2! Care for and respect one another discipline covers formal instruction, but unless you keep the law him... I suspect spiritual hebrews12 6 meaning is afoot again, with evil trying to rob me my... Short – no multi-parters please payment twice for the human condition is a system of simple English designed by Associates. By scripture explanation of the flock us Christ, we would never sin…God bless all….stay on course hebrews12 6 meaning will... ( different from following ) Jesus we be scourged achri telous, keep them falling... In need of a leather whip to your shoulders and chest scourged with Christ and died with Christ we... Beloved son or daughter whose father did not at the time to get your grace answered..
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